Discussion: How do we catalog Guitar Tabs for Liz songs?

[TrampolineFrSpace]

There is a proposal that we host guitar tabs on the GirlySound topsite, along with the MP3s of GirlySound tape 1 and tape 2.  I think that we have consensus that we should do it.

The logistics need to be worked out.

First question:  what is the format of a guitar tab?  Do we standardize on a regular txt file, or is there something better suited.  This is probably an easy question.  The more difficult question is how much information is recorded with each tab.  The originator of the tab should be recognized.  I would think that all contributors during the review process should also be listed, but this is open for discussion.

Second question: how do members submit potential guitar tabs?  We need a way for members to submit these.  What is currently working is the newly created threads for each song.  If the guitar tab is located offsite, then we should insure that we're not stepping on any

Third question: once a guitar tab is submitted, how do we know when it is "done"?   Guitar tabs submitted need to be verified by at least one senior member of the board, my opinion.  Verification needs to occur by someone other than the submitter, by the way.   I would hope that consensus would be obvious.  If general consensus is not achieved, then we're going to need a process for making the final decision.

Fourth question: do we setup a fast track process a guitar tab has already been honed, perhaps on LP Forum?

I want for this process to be something that everyone is comfortable with.

The point man for implementing the process will be Jamie (ant_in_alaska).  On the back side, we will determine a separate process for actually uploading these files and making them easily located.

Is that it?

[JeremyEngle]

First question:  what is the format of a guitar tab?  Do we standardize on a regular txt file, or is there something better suited.  This is probably an easy question.  The more difficult question is how much information is recorded with each tab.  The originator of the tab should be recognized.  I would think that all contributors during the review process should also be listed, but this is open for discussion.

I personally think it's more a pain in the ass than anything else to have to download a guitar tab, whether it's something as simple as a .txt file or something as tricked-out as a GuitarPro tab. I know virtually nothing about web design, but I don't imagine it would be too difficult to format the webpages for each tab so that the text is absolutely bare-bones (the "Teletype" function on this forum produces the sort of text I'm talking about). Again, I have no idea how to go about implementing this, but wherever guitar tabs are concerned, the most basic text formatting is usually preferable.

As far as crediting the author of the tab, all I really want to say on the subject is that I don't care if I'm credited at all. I'm sure others feel differently, of course, and they should certainly receive all due credit. My main concerns are: A) that the tabs we put up are as accurate as they can be; and B) that they reach as many people as possible. More on that second point later...

Second question: how do members submit potential guitar tabs?  We need a way for members to submit these.  What is currently working is the newly created threads for each song.  If the guitar tab is located offsite, then we should insure that we're not stepping on any

Essentially, this project originated here and it seems to be working better here than over there. But there have been a number of tabs submitted over at forumsunlimited.com, and we'll need to bring them over so they can be scrutinized, revised, etc. before their inclusion on the proposed new webpage. My comrade millertime428 hasn't made an appearance on these boards yet -- correct me if I'm wrong -- but I'm sure he'd be happy to make the move.

Then there's the question of using Ray Lew's tabs. They're virtually inaccessible to anyone blindly searching for Liz Phair tabs on the internet, so it'd definitely be in the best interest of "the People" to contact Ray and ask if we could include his work. Of course, we'd also have to ask if he'd mind terribly if we revised it somewhat...

Third question: once a guitar tab is submitted, how do we know when it is "done"?   Guitar tabs submitted need to be verified by at least one senior member of the board, my opinion.  Verification needs to occur by someone other than the submitter, by the way.   I would hope that consensus would be obvious.  If general consensus is not achieved, then we're going to need a process for making the final decision.

Knowing when a tab is done.... Hmm. It's kind of like that  Art vs. Porn case in the Supreme Court: if it feels good, do it. Or something.

Seriously now, a tab is done when all sections of the song have been worked out, charted neatly & accurately (a point on which my voice carries little weight, as I am the King of Messy & Inaccurate Tablature), and has been left unrevised -- or unchallenged, if you will -- for long enough that it becomes safe to assume it's done. Of course, if new information comes to light -- say, if old video footage from a Liz Phair band concert circa 1993 is miraculously unearthed -- and revisions need to be made, I imagine it'd be fairly easy for the webmaster(s) to go in and edit the tab accordingly. No worries.

If a consensus about a particular section of a song -- or, god forbid, an entire song -- is not reached, two or more separate tabs ought to be offered so that the readers can choose for themselves. On the official Elliott Smith website, http://www.sweetadeline.net (which incidentally has been fan-operated since its inception), the extensive selection of guitar tabs offers several interpretations for most songs, although I'm sure the sheer number of differing tabs -- which obviously vary greatly in their accuracy from one to the next -- is more a testament to the lack of collaborative effort in that community than it is a concession to democracy.

RE: "Guitar tabs submitted need to be verified by at least one senior member of the board," I don't think anyone working on a tab would mind if a Johnny-Come-Lately rode in on the back of a pickup and brazenly called us on our mistakes, provided that Johnny knew whereof he spoke. Board Seniority hardly guarantees superior knowledge of guitar theory, unless said Senior member was necessarily proficient at guitar playing. For example, Aaron hasn't been around "the boards" as long as I have -- as far as I know -- but he totally kicks my ass at the game of tabs.

Fourth question: do we setup a fast track process a guitar tab has already been honed, perhaps on LP Forum?

Not sure I understand the question, but I think I may have touched on the topic in response to your Second Question.

Is that it?

One very important thing I want to add is the issue of accessibility. When you do a Google search for "Liz Phair," the first fansite that comes up is Ken Lee's excellent Mesmerizing. (Incidentally, when you search for "Liz Phair guitar tabs," all you get are the myriad, dicey -- but popular! -- guitar tab sites like 911tabs, etc., which are rife with egregious inaccuracies, not to mention spyware, if my McAfee SiteAdvisor is to be believed.) I've asked Ken if he'd consider making a change in his unwritten policy of not including original "works" from fans, apart from the photographs that are already there. You may have noticed that there are no message boards, lyric interpretations pages, or fan reviews/concert reports at his website. To my surprise and delight, he's agreed to clear some space and accept submissions.

Now, before anyone accuses me of an act of betrayal along the lines of Liz Phair's Spin/Rolling Stone cover story debacle of 1994, let me assure you that I think www.girlysound.com should by all means have its own guitar tabs page. All I'm doing is asking if anyone minds if Ken offers a sort of "mirror" section over at his immensely popular website. Make no mistake: I'm merely interested in our tabs reaching the greatest possible number of people. I have no idea how we could ever go about toppling the mighty monster tab sites I mentioned before, but we'd be better poised to do so if our little project gained the kind of prominence that Ken is offering.

Yikes. Now I'm starting to sound like I care too much.

Thoughts?

[TrampolineFrSpace]

One very important thing I want to add is the issue of accessibility. When you do a Google search for "Liz Phair," the first fansite that comes up is Ken Lee's excellent Mesmerizing. (Incidentally, when you search for "Liz Phair guitar tabs," all you get are the myriad, dicey -- but popular! -- guitar tab sites like 911tabs, etc., which are rife with egregious inaccuracies, not to mention spyware, if my McAfee SiteAdvisor is to be believed.) I've asked Ken if he'd consider making a change in his unwritten policy of not including original "works" from fans, apart from the photographs that are already there. You may have noticed that there are no message boards, lyric interpretations pages, or fan reviews/concert reports at his website. To my surprise and delight, he's agreed to clear some space and accept submissions.

Now, before anyone accuses me of an act of betrayal along the lines of Liz Phair's Spin/Rolling Stone cover story debacle of 1994, let me assure you that I think www.girlysound.com should by all means have its own guitar tabs page. All I'm doing is asking if anyone minds if Ken offers a sort of "mirror" section over at his immensely popular website. Make no mistake: I'm merely interested in our tabs reaching the greatest possible number of people. I have no idea how we could ever go about toppling the mighty monster tab sites I mentioned before, but we'd be better poised to do so if our little project gained the kind of prominence that Ken is offering.

Yikes. Now I'm starting to sound like I care too much.

Thoughts?

For me, this is an effort of love.  The effort is to make this as accessible as possible.

I have done google searches and have found items that I have posted here or at LP or even over at refuse-resist showing up with the right item to search.

The value that we have is to perform a critical review process to insure that what gets published is accurate and seems to be the opinion of the best minds that we can access that these tabs are the way to perform the songs by Liz.

Once that's done, we publish with the eye towards making it available.  If that means here and on Mesmerizing, I'm fine with that.

The important thing is to do it right.

Another thing that jumped out at me is that we need to insure that ALL versions of song titles be listed.  This is because each song may have multiple names that it has gone by and we cannot predict which name each searcher selects.  The correct title should always be called out, but the also rans make for more complete search "hits".

[TrampolineFrSpace]

I don't imagine it would be too difficult to format the webpages for each tab so that the text is absolutely bare-bones (the "Teletype" function on this forum produces the sort of text I'm talking about).

This is easy.  It would be "pre" type HTML tags.  When we have the first guitar tab page ready, we'll put it up and we'll ask for comments. 

My main concerns are: A) that the tabs we put up are as accurate as they can be; and B) that they reach as many people as possible.

The credibility of the tab site depends on accuracy.  One thing that we should also look at is the possibility that some of these songs may have been played differently.  If that is the case, then let's call it out.  I'm with you.

Essentially, this project originated here and it seems to be working better here than over there. But there have been a number of tabs submitted over at forumsunlimited.com, and we'll need to bring them over so they can be scrutinized, revised, etc. before their inclusion on the proposed new webpage.

Let's try to snag as many as possible from over there.

Then there's the question of using Ray Lew's tabs. They're virtually inaccessible to anyone blindly searching for Liz Phair tabs on the internet, so it'd definitely be in the best interest of "the People" to contact Ray and ask if we could include his work. Of course, we'd also have to ask if he'd mind terribly if we revised it somewhat...

Ken seemed to know that Ray Lew no longer works for Capitol.  I'll try to contact him, but it would be useful if someone has already made contact.  I also know that the bunch from refuse-resist made contact with Ray during the Bionic Eyes incident.  It may have only been with his admin account.  I'll have to find out.

RE: "Guitar tabs submitted need to be verified by at least one senior member of the board," I don't think anyone working on a tab would mind if a Johnny-Come-Lately rode in on the back of a pickup and brazenly called us on our mistakes, provided that Johnny knew whereof he spoke. Board Seniority hardly guarantees superior knowledge of guitar theory, unless said Senior member was necessarily proficient at guitar playing. For example, Aaron hasn't been around "the boards" as long as I have -- as far as I know -- but he totally kicks my ass at the game of tabs.

I just wanted to insure accuracy.  Even if you are not as good in the tabbing process, your longevity and dedication speaks to your intentions.  What is required for verification are people who will place their reputation for recognizing something of value.

I personally am impressed with the dedication of Jamie and she seems to have the right frame of mind for this task.

[JeremyEngle]

Another thing that jumped out at me is that we need to insure that ALL versions of song titles be listed.  This is because each song may have multiple names that it has gone by and we cannot predict which name each searcher selects.  The correct title should always be called out, but the also rans make for more complete search "hits".

You're really breakin' my balls here, Jon.
</end Cartman>

No, I'm kidding. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but there might be a way to allow the searcher to find their loot without perpetuating the use of the wrong song titles. If the user performs a Google search, for instance, and we include the lyrics on the same page as our tab, the tab should be easily locatable even if the user doesn't know the correct song title. I can't think of any instance in which an incorrect song title wasn't derived from the lyrics.  In the case of something like 'Don't Hold Yr Breath,' 'Pay You Back' is a valid alternate title (as that's how Liz had it printed on one of her setlists from the 1995 tour), so the listing could read 'Don't Hold Yr Breath/Pay You Back,' and the user should be able to identify it. Likewise, if someone goes looking for 'Willie the Six-Dicked Pimp,' 'Why I Left California,' 'It's Not That Easy,' or 'I Know It's Not Easy,' the correct song titles -- '6-Dick Pimp,' 'California,' 'Easy,' and 'Ant In Alaska' -- ought to trigger some sort of recognition, provided the user is familiar with the songs (as they're likely to be, if they're going to the trouble of finding the tabs).

Am I totally daft? Should I put down my copy of Christopher Hitchens' Letters To a Young Contrarian? I just can't stand those old, obsolete, incorrect song titles and feel like I'm going to be decrying their existence until the end of time.

I also think it'd be helpful if there were an e-mail link on the tab webpage (perhaps even for every tab) inviting the user to contact the administrator in the event that they spot an error or don't find what they're looking for. It could double as a Troubleshooting/Request hotline.

What say you?

[TrampolineFrSpace]

I certainly wish to prominently display the correct title (large font) and clearly mark the other titles as incorrectly derived alternative titles (smaller font), unless the song clearly has had its name changed.

For instance, Gigalo was released as Can't Get Out Of What I'm In To.  I suspect that the record company and/or Liz might have been behind that mistake (I know, I really picked a really bad example to make my point, didn't I?).

The deal is that I do software for a living and we get a big push to think like the customer.  If we clearly label the correct answer and clearly label the others as such, then it should be clear and no one needs to be sending email to ask questions (unless they really don't read the instructions, which we can't help anyway).

I plan to prototype a guitar tab or two on my own website and you can provide feedback.  I also want a revision history, in case someone snatches a guitar tab and then comes back later and can clearly figure out if we have revised the entry.

I like the idea of listing the lyrics separately, which makes for better search hits (just type in part of the lyrics and you get a match).

If we get really ambitious then we can even have a recording of someone just playing the tab as it is written to drive home how it sounds per direction.

The song should also include what album it came from, any special inside information about it, etc.

This could actually be quite a useful resource for more than just guitar players if we happen to do it right.

[JeremyEngle]

I certainly wish to prominently display the correct title (large font) and clearly mark the other titles as incorrectly derived alternative titles (smaller font), unless the song clearly has had its name changed.

When you talk about prominently displaying the correct title, etc., are you talking about the individual webpage for the specific tab? It would make sense to me to include somewhere on that page -- the one with the actual tablature and the lyrics -- a note about any alternate/incorrect song titles.

Imagine a webpage for the song 'Open Season': At the top of the page you'd have the song title ('Open Season' -- and it doesn't even have to be in large font), followed by the tablature, then the lyrics, and then a note at the bottom that might say something like, "This song also circulated under the incorrect title 'Beg Me'." With that information on the webpage -- lyrics included, remember -- it should be easily searchable via Google or any other engine.

As for the main index page, I don't think it would be necessary to list the various incorrect titles of each song we have tabbed.

For instance, Gigalo was released as Can't Get Out Of What I'm In To.  I suspect that the record company and/or Liz might have been behind that mistake (I know, I really picked a really bad example to make my point, didn't I?).

Actually, it's not a mistake. Liz changed the title of the song because she changed the lyrics. The original song, 'Gigalo,' is about a male prostitute. 'Can't Get Out of What I'm Into' is about... I don't know, her career, I guess. And the guitar parts are totally different (see if you can guess which one is harder to figure out). Actually, that's one I'd like to try sometime... but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

If we clearly label the correct answer and clearly label the others as such, then it should be clear and no one needs to be sending email to ask questions (unless they really don't read the instructions, which we can't help anyway).

I hope this doesn't mean you don't like my idea for a Questions/Comments e-mail link. I love the idea of our readers posing a challenge.

I also want a revision history, in case someone snatches a guitar tab and then comes back later and can clearly figure out if we have revised the entry.

Good idea.

If we get really ambitious then we can even have a recording of someone just playing the tab as it is written to drive home how it sounds per direction.

Hoo-boy.

The song should also include what album it came from, any special inside information about it, etc.

I think the songs should be listed on a main index page grouped by album. Non-album tracks should be listed under separate categories (EPs/Singles/Soundtracks/Live/etc.). The same information can be repeated on the actual tab webpage for each song.

[TrampolineFrSpace]

All good ideas.  I think we're making progress.

I have a website of my own that I want to post some prototype pages.  I'm going to start to work on a couple and then post the link from this thread.

Initial pages will first focus on substance rather than style.  Style should probably something to worry about when we get the basic layout done.

Most pages should have somewhat similar look and feel.

Oh, and one important thing is that it should be laid out so that each song can easily be printed.  This probably means white or very light background with dark text.  That's what I imagine most users would almost immediately do.

[Aaron]

Guitar Pro has PDF output that includes notation (see California/Batmobile thread), but it ends up being about 150kb per full page, I think.  The PDF of Strange Loop I exported ended up being a little over 1MB.  Chord diagrams can be inserted as well.  I will probably make GP files for myself anyway, so if they are ever requested, you know who to ask.

[TrampolineFrSpace]

Ok, I made my first start.

Here is the main page:
http://www.geocities.com/halfcenturyproject/music/lizphair/guitartabs/index.html

I posted the initial page and the version of Shane as posted by "folderol and" on LP Forum.

I'm going to start to add some more pages for more songs.  Eventually, I want to organize the songs both alphabetically and by album.  Initially, I'll just use a sorted bulleted list with song titles.

I want to migrate these pages to a separate area on geocities, but they would also be mirrored eventually on GirlySound and perhaps Mesmerizing.

I would also like to make an alternative for the wikipedia entry for GirlySound.  The alternative would include the graphics missing from the "official" wikipedia page.

[TrampolineFrSpace]

I happened to mention to one of my coworkers the fact that I was posting the guitar tabs and he said that some of the record companies were going after people posting tons of the guitar tabs.

This begs the question of the legality of posting these tabs on a website.

I'd like someone on the know to post something about this.

For the moment, I will assume that guitar tabs for unreleased songs (demos only), GirlySound tracks, and her first several albums with Matador would be OK.  I don't think that anyone will be posting anything from the CDs that were done by Capitol Records, but I don't want to take any chances until I get a better indication of my situation.

If I get a cease and desist request from some lawyers, then everything comes down.

[TrampolineFrSpace]

I'm going to try to download seamonkey or one of the other web page editing tools to try to clean up what I have.

My concerns about the pages are this:

• Consistent look and feel of the guitar tabs themselves
• Consistent look and feel of the containing web pages, particularly improving on the first cut that I have already posted
• Adding a section to track guitar tab edits
• Adding a section to contain song information
• Adding a section to track other (non-tab) edits
• The fact that nobody has commented on what I have posted already.
• I need to send a note to Harkrider about uploading once I have release candidate versions of these pages ready.

[TrampolineFrSpace]

I wasted part of today trying to use a tool like nvu to edit the HTML that I had already created.

The better approach would be to just cut and paste the text from what I had done to a new HTML page created entirely by nvu and then it wouldn't have mixed artifacts from my originals.  The font sizes kept getting screwed up and I just wasn't happy with the results.

I'll try to get this to look better tomorrow.

I realize that there are at least 10-12 more tabs that I can quickly put together from the threads in this section, but why should I put them out if I won't really like the way that they flow?

I'll try to have alternatives and y'all can tell me which looks better.

... more tomorrow.

[TrampolineFrSpace]

I'm still thinking about how this actually happens.

It seems that what we need are two gofers.  One comes up with a template HTML page for the guitar tabs.  I've kinda taken that on.

The other has to take whatever the group determines is the guitar tab information and use something like Guitar Pro to lay it out so that the HTML person can produce the guitar tab page.

I can tell you right now that I can't be the other gofer.  I don't know enough guitar to publish the instructions and I don't have a product like Guitar Pro.

The problem that we had was that some of the discussions end up with something only partially worth publishing.  Someone needs to clean up the work and put it all together.

One thing that will happen is that anyone doing the grunt work (HTML or guitar pro cleanup) gets credit on the pages for their effort.  This will be in addition to the people that actually work out how to play it.

Anyways, I haven't been pushing this because I've been busy, but I have been thinking about it.

[Aaron]

I wouldn't mind doing any Guitar Pro cleanup but it may be a little while as my laptop is in for repair.  I should get it back this week but also got the "there may be a delay..." e-mail.

Guitar Pro does ascii-text, bitmap (big file), and Adobe PDF file export (about 150kb per page of music).